Guy Spier:

So here we are down there something just to set the scene. We are in the library of my office, which is our room, which doesn’t have a telephone. It doesn’t have a computer, although it does have wifi and it does have a Sonos speaker and it doubles up as my map from in there about what would you estimate the number of books here, Diana,

Diana Wais:

I’m impressed. I love the fact that there are so many books.

Guy Spier:

So, uh, Diana, we will get into some of the topics that I know that you want to discuss. But um, I want you to tell me a little bit about what it’s like to watch somebody like guy spear, uh, go from being completely ignorant about the things that you’re so knowledgeable about, to, uh, learning a little bit more about those things and in the process. Tell us a little bit about yourself.

Diana Wais:

Okay. Well this fits very nicely together because you’ve known me for about almost 20 years now. I don’t know exactly how many, but for a long time and that is precisely the time. I have spent studying people’s emotions and the human mind. And because we get along great, we always talk about the things we are excited about, including the stuff that I’ve been studying. So along the way, you were this fantastic person who would read all the books I’d recommend, and the go to the therapist. I’d recommend

Guy Spier:

at the time you were doing your PhD at long Island university, Stony Brook university, and then you studied with Diana Fosha has done ADP. And maybe you can tell a little bit more about the number of people that you’ve studied within the kinds of therapy that you’ve learned about and understood. Sue Johnson and Ottawa was another person that you explained a lot to me about. And then, uh, John Gottman, who was another one, and you got me into Dan Siegel and the developing mind. Uh, and tell me some about some more of the people that you’ve taught me about, but also the people that you’ve learned from the most.

Diana Wais:

Peter Levine, Eugene Gendlin. I would add to that list, but you’ve mentioned a lot of the people who have influenced me, Lee McCullough from Harvard university. Um, so maybe to summarize or give some understanding. Um, I studied the emotional of the mind when I was doing my PhD, including the transmission of certain emotional imprints across generations. So how do we, um, pass on certain of our patterns to our children? Then the cross generation that cross relationships. And then I studied, um, once I had that theoretical framework of this research, how do you change it if you don’t like the way your mind and your unconscious mind are structured and imprinted based on your experiences and the people you’ve been exposed to?

Guy Spier:

So, uh, uh, the listeners should know that I wrote about you in my book and that I would not have written the same book. It would have been a very different book if I had not met you and I’m just going to use a specific example for you to speak to. So, uh, I learned that when I was at DH Blair, which I write about in the book, uh, I was in a state of learned helplessness. Uh, what I don’t write about in the book is that I’d had very difficult experiences in a boarding school. Uh, where I couldn’t leave, but then those, uh, experiences with transferred such that when I was at DH Blair, because there was some elements of the environment that were the same, I felt like I couldn’t leave DH player. And actually I could, and this was around the time that I met you and I started getting an understanding of how I was actually reliving an old script, even though the script was not valid.

Guy Spier:

And I think that you helped me a lot actually to see that I could free myself from that script by talking to me about Tony Robbins. So for those of you who’ve read my book, when I talk about in the English version of European couple that, uh, uh, that I was very impressed with because they both had PhDs and they were Europeans and they were intellectuals. Diana was one of the people in that couple. And she’s the person who told me to go and do the Tony Robbins seminar. I’ll never forget you saying you should go do it. Go. It’ll change your life. But so maybe you can tell if it was many of the people listening to this would have read my book. Maybe can just give it a little bit from your perspective of what you saw in me and maybe bring some of your ideas and uh, related to me and the person I was then and what you saw me change into and was able to, for example, get the hat out of DH Blair for example. Well,

Diana Wais:

one of the things I admire about you so much guy is that you are such a keen learner. You just love to learn, which anybody who could see this room now would look at all these books and would get that in a moment. But people who know you, you’re just always curious and you always want to learn and get to the bottom of things. And I think when you have that attribute, you and you are also have a second attribute, which is openness. You are in a way open to work on yourself to change, to grow, to try things out, even if it’s not perfect. And that those two, the humility to be open to learn and the curiosity and interest in constantly learning and growing are very powerful tool forces because it means that you can constantly improve yourself, constantly learn, constantly reflect on what’s holding you back, what’s causing trouble, which is really what I think has made you grow so much over the years.

Guy Spier:

So that’s really kind Diana, what, uh, Dan is not sharing is that she was able to get me and what they weren’t formally formal therapy sessions or those at the same time going to therapy sessions. But she enabled me to redirect my intellect away from solving, uh, spreadsheets and the kinds of hard problems, so-called hard problems that I’d learned to solve at business school and the university. And to redirect my energy and my attention inwards to understand what my emotions were doing, which I had no clue about. So I still don’t have much of a frame to just ask my wife, Diana. But, uh, so that’s a nice introduction to Diane. And what I’d tell you is that, uh, Diana has a great website. She’s got a, um, a talk that she did at TEDx Thessaloniki, which has a very large number of views. It’s very, very worth watching as an introduction to Diana. Um, uh, so you can Google her and you can Google the talk. What I’m not going to do is pause and then we’re going to come back for a poppy, which is going to be where I dealt specifically into Diana’s knowledge. I hope that you now have a sufficient, um, digestive juices going and, uh, take in some of the rich experience and knowledge that Diana has, especially for those of us who are a little more emotional seeing the minute.

Guy Spier:

So welcome back to part two. And, uh, I really, um, rather sorry that I switched the recorder of because just telling Diana that I think that this is such a wonderful medium. The podcasting medium is so wonderful. People in a certain way. We have people with us who are on their daily commute to work. Um, they take us jogging with them. Uh, they’re in the car driving or it’s just a special moment and it’s a very, very personal, intimate, warm way to share, uh, experiences. So, uh, and then Diana did a Betty laugh, which was just so worth it, but we missed it. Maybe if do what, I will get it back. We’ll see. So I’m going to go straight into what I know the time already wants to tell me and you the listener. And so Diana, you, you were saying that you’re working on something called the emotional laws and how it might be relevant to investors and other listeners of the podcast. So just dive in.

Diana Wais:

Okay. Okay. So the emotional loss is my latest attempt to summarize some of this stuff I’ve learned over 20 years. What I have found over the years is because my research on couples and non-emotional patterns and how it affects children is quite interesting. And some of my work was clients, you know, I said therapist. And as an executive coach is the type of information that naturally people want to know about when I’m in a social group or in a social setting. And I find that people end up like interviewing me about it, even to the point where kind of like this really, yes, but this happens a lot. And then people keep saying, you know, Oh, I want to learn about this. So the emotional loss is we learn in school about the laws of physics or the laws of chemistry. But we never really, or how many of you have learned about the emotional loss? And yet the world of emotion has a lot to do with our happiness, with our interpersonal relationships. And yet we never get a guide to it. So as I was learning about so much about the mind and psychology, I always thought, why isn’t there a guide but not some kind of theoretical treaty, but a user’s manual for how the mind works? And that’s what I’m working on. So I call it the emotional law’s a guide to your own mind.

Guy Spier:

Okay. Well, um, so, uh,

Diana Wais:

so are you asking me how does maybe relevant to investors?

Guy Spier:

Well, why don’t you, uh, uh, tell me about, um, uh, what, can you give me an example of one of those laws? So, so what would an example of one of those laws be? Very specifically.

Diana Wais:

I think I would like to answer it differently. I’d like to explain to you how it works. Okay. Tell me how it works. Because I’m still working out what I’m making into a law and what I’m making into a derivative of the law and how I’m structuring it. So I’m still playing around with that. But I can tell you what I already know based on how far I’ve progressed. So there’s a theoretical portion that explains the loss and then there are short films that are actually real life stories that illustrate these loss. And sometimes it’s can be quite humorous because our mind sometimes is not so rational and sometimes it is. And the emotional loss have a logic that some call the emotions are illogical or irrational. And I maintain they’re not, they’re just following a different logic than the rational mind. They’re following in emotional logic and sometimes it can be quite funny. So over the years I have collected a lot of stories about that and I’m making them into films to bring the whole thing to life. And then also exercises so people can work through their own stuff after learning about the emotional loss and actually apply to their own mind.

Guy Spier:

So before I asked you about how this might be relative into investors, can you give, I know that you can’t give all of them, and I know that in many cases the key is to sanitize the content so that there are no, it can’t be traced back to any individuals. But can you tell a story about that illustrates one of these laws, what one of these videos will look like and what the take home value will be for somebody who watches one before we talk about how it’s relevant to some of that.

Diana Wais:

Okay. So for example, one storyline is an actual videotaped therapeutic work piece of work I’ve done with someone. And I got the permission of this person to edit these videotaped therapy sessions into a version that could be used to train psychologists because I used to train psychologists and psychiatrists in how to um, achieve rapid resolution of traumatic emotional memories and things like that that imprint the human mind and their behavior and their personality. So I have this 35 minute film of a man that was unable to love. So, and that over the course of eight sessions that we work has several heart opening experiences. And by the end of this work he can love.

Guy Spier:

So this sound, this is fantastic. Now we’re down to the meaty details. This was a man who was unable to love. Yes. Has anybody heard of that before? Did anybody hear that from their wives? Sometime recently, maybe or not so recently. So this man comes to you and the problem that he presents with is that he’s unable to love.

Diana Wais:

Yes. So in the therapeutic sessions that we do that are on this film and his identity is hidden, but still it’s used for training people. Um, we have, we go back to some of the emotional moments in his life that caused him to close his heart and his heart. It’s been kind of behind this wall ever since. And he kind of doesn’t even know that. It’s almost like a part of himself got lost there during some traumatic, and that part is like, you could imagine like frozen. So we released that part so that his emotional part is back online and he can and he’s able to love his children first and foremost. And then other people.

Guy Spier:

Hello? So he presents unable to love and he doesn’t know why. And then how many sessions does it take before you have some kind of knowledge, common knowledge between you and him of the traumatic event that closed off his ability?

Diana Wais:

We have no recollection. In fact, he maintained that nothing traumatic ever happened to him. Um, I had a hunch based on his inability to love because we close our hearts when we, you know, when we have certain experiences. But I didn’t say that to him it was just a hypothesis and that the proof is in the pudding. If we do the work and the situation changes, then we’ve proved the point. But the point is not whether there were some traumatic events or not. That’s not the point. The point is, can we get him back to love,

Guy Spier:

if I understand correctly, what you’re telling me is that the therapeutic process that releases had released him from this inability to it. So, so one point very important is that the model that you have of humans is that we’re all born, and correct me if I’m wrong, we’re all born with the capacity to love. Yes. But that unfortunately for some of us through no fault of our own have events happen to us that close that off. Yes. But now, uh, because I think that I’m familiar what was very familiar and probably many of the listeners are very familiar with the kind of therapy which is talk therapy where you re analyze the events around the trauma again and again and again, and you analyze it from a kind of an intellectual neocortex type perspective. And, uh, can you give us a little bit of a sense of, um, exactly how do you address that trauma?

Guy Spier:

What is it that happens, uh, that enables you and I should tell the listener that I’ve seen diner in action with me. I’ve seen her in action with me and my wife and I’ve seen her talking about some of the, um, uh, therapeutic experiences that she’s had. And I’ve absolutely no doubt that there’s something that is, is almost sort of miraculous that happens. And I’m just hoping that you can describe it a little bit and in some way it’s really exciting and I know that, um, as part of, I really wanted to record an interview with you is that in a certain way it’s not just about hitting our lives, although it’s also about that it’s about having better children, it’s about having better families in a sudden way. I think that what is in a certain way frustrating for you is you feel a new property, right? That you have the keys to heal humanity. There are many problems that we see in the world that couldn’t be healed by some of the things that you can see. And I guess we can’t sort of do it in all its multi colleague color glory, but just to give a hint of how those transformations happen in your therapy sessions.

Diana Wais:

Okay, thank you. So we have different parts of the brain and some parts are, I call them the rational system and some parts, I call them the emotional system, and they are different structures of the brain. So the rational system is the neocortex and the emotional system is our limbic system. Now, when you only do intellectual talk therapy, you tend to reach the rational side.